“Intangible heritage is something that is in flux”

In this exclusive interview, Fatima Fall Niang, author and former director of the Centre de recherche et de documentation du Sénégal (CRDS), discusses her role in getting Saint-Louis and Ceebu Jen on the UNESCO World Heritage List. She reflects on the challenges of heritage preservation and emphasises the evolving importance of African food culture at the SIAL African Food Summit.

You contributed to the inclusion of the island of Saint-Louis and Ceebu Jen on the UNESCO World Heritage List. What challenges did you encounter in the course of this project? What can you tell us about this feedback?
First of all, it’s the sense of sharing, because heritage is something that we have in common and that we have to share. This is therefore an opportunity to thank the organisers of the Salon de l’agriculture et de l’alimentation, but above all to thank Dr Damien Connary, whom I met at the Cuisines Africaines event in Marseille in March 2024 and who did me the honour of being our moderator, and it was certainly following our discussions that he felt it right to invite me to share once again about food and particularly the Ceebu Jen element. To come back to the question of challenges, I’ll start by saying that Saint-Louis has been on the World Heritage List since 1973. Because the application for inclusion was submitted at the same time as that for Gorée. So you can imagine, Gorée was inscribed in 78 and we in 2000.

So you can see the distance, and as there was no mention of it, Saint-Louisians in particular thought we were already on the list. But we weren’t. We took up the application again at the 1998 Saint-Louis conference, an economic, tourism, education, cultural, etc., etc. conference organised by the Saint-Louis town hall. And it was following this that we, as a research institution, took up the dossier again in relation to certain sites in Saint-Louis that we had called Saint-Louis Machines, which includes the island of Saint-Louis. And so that’s where the inspection started, the resumption of the inspection file for the island of Saint-Louis as a world heritage site. So in ‘95, “98, we worked on it, in ”99, we received experts and the only downside we had, and which continues to this day, is communication. We didn’t have time to involve the community in the standards to be met and after the inspection. We don’t always manage to get things respected, even though from time to time people understand us, come to their senses and take things as they should be. But we’re also lucky enough to have the descos, the land use authority, which reports to the President of the Republic, and Saint-Louis is the only city after Dakar to have this authority. So that’s fortunate, and as it’s also run by the gendarmerie, whenever we have a situation, we pass on the information to the governor, the prefect and of course the mayor’s office, and together we summon the person concerned if there’s any resistance, and then we let the territorial administration follow. And that’s that. I agree. That’s the second, even though the State of Senegal subsequently borrowed a loan from France through the AFD to rehabilitate private sites. There are about twenty rehabilitated sites and all this will also contribute to management, but also to compliance, especially with standards on the Ile de Seine. Coming back to Ceebu Jen, we didn’t really have any problems there because a year before, the heritage direct at the international gas festival had started to get us working. We organised a lunch made by Ceebu Jen for the journalists who were in Saint-Louis. We tasted, we laughed, we ate well of course and that’s what allowed us to say, listen, we’re going to continue. The following year, in 2019-2020, the Ministry of Culture launched an inventory of intangible heritage.

So I was coordinating the Saint-Louis and Matam regions, in the north. That’s why we were able to continue with the Ceebu Jen file with the support of the communities, particularly Guernap, because you can’t make thiep without fish, whether freshwater or saltwater, because it’s also a good thing that Ceebu Jen is prepared according to the season in question, using freshwater fish from the river as well as from the ocean.

And so their support made our work easier, even though it was at the beginning of Covid, but we went to meet them and everything went well. Now, when we began to pick up again, to meet up again towards the end of the year, so in September 2020, the governor organised a CRD, that is to say a regional steering committee, which enabled us to bring together both the communities, the women’s associations, the GIEs, the researchers, the whole community, I can say, in addition now to the Ministry of Culture, through the Heritage Department, the finalisation of the files with the letters of consent. And I think it’s only been a round trip.

How important is intangible heritage to you?
Intangible heritage is something that is on the move. When I say that it’s on the move, I mean that it ties in with our round table on food. The material is constantly evolving because things change over time. Ways of doing things change. So it’s the same with food. We have to stay true to our starting point, originality, but with health in mind.
My grandmothers practically ate seven days a week, with five days being Ceebu Jen. And yet, for the most part, they didn’t have high blood pressure or diabetes. And so it’s in this way that Africans are now, I would say, coming to their senses. What explains all this is that I can take the example of African cuisine, where people get together to show what our grandmothers, how they cooked and traditionally. Examples include the Festival des Marmites in Togo and Kite-tob in Senegal. But alongside all that, we have other skills, like dyeing, like weaving, weaving which in some areas, and I’m always talking about Senegal, is disappearing. So there are times when we have to stop and think about how to bring certain things back. And I think that both Africans and our partners are helping us to get back on the right foot. Know-how has to be passed on. And that starts with young people. We’ve been doing Ceebu Jen since the age of 9, when I started cooking. It’s not about cooking straight away, it’s about going through the stages. You come and see how things are done. Then you’re told yes, you’re going to remove the bad seeds from the rice.
Then we’ll give you the vegetables to peel. Then we clean the fish. How to remove the scales. And we’ll keep showing you until your mum says ah now she can go straight to the kitchen because she’s followed the different steps. And that’s how it goes. And we’re currently doing the rounds of the higher training schools in Senegal, but also recently this year, after the African church, we went to Pointe-Noire in Congo and we had to work with the Chamber of Commerce on these training issues around Saka Saka, perhaps next year, it will be Nolé, in Cameroon, etc…. So, to tell you the truth, it’s a question of transmission. And if we’re not careful, we, as researchers, have to travel, go and meet people, interview them. We’ve started this and even a team from the Université Gaston-Berger has joined us at the Gaillet so that we can work together on the issue of safeguarding intangible heritage in its various forms. Whether it’s know-how or gastronomy. And all the more so as these skills are held by families. Of course they are. And so these families need to be accompanied and supported, because there’s also the school. Yes, all children used to be passed on from father to son or mother to daughter. If I take pottery, for example, the daughter has to go to school, she doesn’t have the time to keep up. There are only holidays and so on. So it’s also up to us to help, to show that you can sell and make a living from what you do by, for example, reducing the weight by doing this, reducing that and also by facilitating, for example, raw materials, access to raw materials. Through OMG, through associations, through the State too. After all, it’s the Ministry of Culture and Tourism that manages these issues. But we support them as a research institution.

What inspired you to write your double-award-winning book ‘Ceebu Jen un plat bien sénégalais’?
I decided to write about Ceebu Jen on the day we held the CRD with the governor. And when I saw the director of heritage, because he was the one who spoke, I was there watching, I saw all the people who had come, who were in the room, who had given good ideas, the constraints encountered. I said to myself, that’s it, now I’m going to write. And immediately, on my right, there was my co-author, whom I’d invited, who was one of the resource people. Before, we used to do our Ceebu Jen in our own way, depending on what was available. Because in Wallau, we have fish from the river. But in Saint-Louis, which is a city of water, we have the river, we have the sea, we have the opportunity. We didn’t have rice, so instead we used water lilies. I don’t know if you’ve heard of water lilies. Yes, it’s a freshwater plant with a flower above the water and a fruit inside. And it was this fruit that was collected, replaced and used instead of rice or pearl millet. Until the colonialists imposed rice on us, and that’s when we used rice instead of these two elements. So these are things that people don’t know about, and even when the colonisers imposed rice on us, which came from Indochina, because you have to remember that the Dutch also colonised West Africa, Senegal, Ghana, etc., hence the presence of these different forts that have been preserved until now. And then there’s the history, the stroke of genius, the way in which Ceebu Jen is prepared for the one that differs from the other regions, to the point where other countries wanted to seize it and call it the ‘Duel of Ries’. I’m not going to name them, they’ve even appealed to the inspectorate, even though Ceebu Jen is not prepared in the same way as jollof rice. And when we talk about jollof, jollof is a part of Senegal, it’s not, you’ll never find jollof in Ghana or Nigeria. It was Al-Bouriniaï who crossed Saint-Louis, married a Saint-Louis woman and went off to play the devil with LH Omar, who brought Ceebu Jen to the grant. Agreed. If it had been Dandia, Mauritania or even Mali, I could have understood. But Ghana and Nigeria really have nothing to do with our national Ceebu Jen. And Penda Mbaye. Penda Mbaye, she was a lady by the way, when you arrive in Senegal, you say you want to eat Ceebu Jen, straight away you’re told you have to go to Saint-Louis because the best Ceebu Jen are in Saint-Louis. On top of that, you’re going to find good fish, even if today it’s a resource that’s become a very rare commodity, but we’re still going to tell you to go to Saint-Lucien, but we’re scattered all over the world. So today, with the inspection, the Ceebu Jen doesn’t even belong to us. And indeed, the Ceebu Jen of today is different from the Ceebu Jen of before. Because today, the people who make Ceebu Jen, I wouldn’t say, because today the tamarind that used to be put in the sauce, etc., is still used. Today, tamarind is used separately. Today there are people who use broths. I’m against that. But frankly I’m against broths because they destroy your health and so on. Outside Saint Louis, people fry fish, and when you fry fish, it changes the taste of the whole thiep. For example, today, I work with women, helping them to prepare better because it’s the only way to get the fish ready. I help them to prepare it better because they’re restaurant owners and so on. And instead of dipping the vegetables to preserve the nutrients, just five minutes before putting on the rice. So she dips the vegetables in and takes them out, so that’s it. And so it’s things like this that we need to continue and insist on, with the support of doctors of course. But beyond that, there’s gastro-diplomacy in the book. It’s an element that can act as a catalyst. And it’s starting to happen, because the restaurant owners I’ve just mentioned are receiving orders from tourists who come to stay for a morning’s preparation before tasting the Ceebu Jen. In the past, they prepared the food, people came to eat, they prepared it and they sold their Cieebu Jen. Today, they receive orders and bookings to follow the process through to tasting. So all these elements come in. But I can’t finish without talking about all the education and socialisation that goes on around the bowl. Because when you eat from the bowl, you’re looking at yourself. Around the bowl, when you’re eating, you put your finger to block the plate so that it doesn’t move. It shows you’re humble. You demean yourself in front of everyone. Then, when you eat, you eat in front of you. And there’s always an elderly person there, who takes the nutrients from each child around the bowl. Everyone on the same level to show solidarity. When you eat in front of you, it means that when you are entrusted with something. Know that it’s not for you alone. When the elderly person brings everyone back, it shows that it’s for everyone. So there are always questions of socialisation and education around the body. So it was all these elements that made me say to myself that we had to write and with Alpha, well, the result is there. And I think it’s all these elements that, for the jury, in any case, des gourmands à Watt, whom I’d like to thank by the way, the book won a double award. Yes, because in fact it’s more than just a tasting room, it’s a state of mind. Yes, it is. Really, the sense of sharing, when you’re around the bowl, it’s appropriate. But when you look back, the rice used to come from another South. Vegetables came from Europe, other vegetables came from the United States. We brought the fish and our touch.

You ran Senegal’s research and documentation centre for 18 years. So how do you see the development of heritage research and documentation in general in Africa? What are your views on this?
We can’t do anything about popularisation in our own backyard. We have to open up. I’ve always shared my experience and skills with Africans first and foremost. And that’s what led to the twinning between Saint-Louis and Douala town hall, through the USC project. Yes, a project financed by the European Union and always within the framework of research and safeguarding and promoting intangible heritage. And so there are elements like that, because after all, if we remain compartmentalised in our little points, nothing will get done. But when we open up, we can help and contribute because, in any case, this heritage is for us, this heritage is for you, this heritage is for everyone.

What issues do you think the SIAL Summit Arique highlights?
I saw something in the programme that appealed to me. Be there where the future of food is decided.
For me, it’s an opportunity to meet up with a lot of people with whom I share a lot of things, and to be able to move in the same direction, that is to say this fight that we want to eat and that we want to do, that is to say that people can eat healthily, but also correctly. Because today in Africa, things that didn’t exist before are happening now: obesity, chronic diseases, everything you can imagine. And even before I left CRDS, I had some labs set up on the second floor. There’s an international disability lab, I have no choice, I have to name them, it’s an NGO, but it’s a lab from Gaston Berger University, from the Department of Diabetes, which was set up here because in Saint-Louis, the community, we have almost 15% of diabetics. So that means that if you take 100 people, 15 of them in Saint-Louis have diabetes. I agree. And what’s more, the first case of diabetes in West Africa was found in Saint-Louis. Yes, because of its cultural diversity, Saint-Louis was the first capital of Senegal. So, even if you want to go inland you have to pass through Saint-Louis and then go to the river to get there. So we need to look again at how to eat better and healthier. The fact that I’m taking part in this round table will be a real opportunity for me to share all these elements, but also to learn from each other to improve what’s being done, for example, at my level. Because that’s what sharing is all about. You come with proposals, but at the same time counter-proposals to come from the other side and together we’ll see how we can really transfer this around the world. Yes, it’s an opportunity to exchange ideas and to have several points of view on a common theme, on common issues.When it comes to African heritage, we always manage to come together, because when we think about the community for which we are there, we do things to ensure that things move in the right direction.
And when I say moving in the right direction, I mean moving in the same direction, i.e. improving conditions. When I say improving conditions, I mean everyone, breeders, farmers, fishermen and of course now everything to do with restoration, because we need to train people, we need to inform them. They don’t always have the right information. We’re lucky in Saint-Louis to have doctors who work with us, who come to us for information, and who are even writing based on what we’ve told them about Ceebu Jen. And every time we have training courses in schools, hotel management and so on, we take one or two doctors with us, to tell you the truth. What’s more, they’re the ones who came to us. We didn’t even have time to go to them. We launched our book. They saw it through the media. They came to us. So for the new edition of the book, there will be a health section that will be more developed.

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